Financial Times
Tuesday Apr 28 2009
ASIA-PACIFIC
India
Transcript: FT interview with Raj Thackeray
Published: April 28 2009 05:32 | Last updated: April 28 2009 05:32
Joe Leahy, Mumbai bureau chief, Varun Sood, Mumbai reporter, and James Fontanella-Khan, India editor FT.com, interviewed Raj Thackeray, founder of Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) or Maharashtra Renaissance Army, with Anil Shirode, General Secretary of MNS, present last April. Here is an edited transcript of the interview translated from Hindi.
Financial Times: I want to ask you about your party name Maharashtra Navnirman Sena. What does MNS stands for?
Raj Thackeray: There are two to three things. When I was about to start a party at that time there were so many other parties. What was I going to tell the electorate? I had to decide what message I was going to convey through the name I gave my party. I had always believed I would make the party a state party and confine it to Maharashtra [the state of which Mumbai is the capital]. Hence, I started the party’s name with “Maharashtra”. [The second word I chose was] Navnirman [Renaissance] because in the past 60 years, since independence, India’s political parties have been fighting elections mainly on four to five issues. Despite this, we have never fulfilled [the promises contained in the campaigns regarding] those four to five issues. Everyone promises to invest money in electricity, roads and jobs. But that’s where things have ended [with the promises].
If we want to build something new, then we should show the people [of Maharashtra] something new. So I started a fresh new party. On March 19 [2006] when I presided at the first rally, I told the people these same things. So the whole philosophy [behind MNS] was to overcome the prevailing political hypocrisy. I needed to do something different. Now some time has passed since then but we are facing the same problems with agriculture, with water. The same lectures from our politicians are being proffered. They make promises but they are just that. There is nothing in them. Everyone promises to give free electricity, free housing, everything for free.
Right from that first rally, I thought to myself that if I stand for election, I will need to tell the people what I am going to do. I will need to map out a blueprint. What is the problem, and what is the solution. Today, this is the report on electricity and this is the report on water. We will go before the people with these reports.
During the last elections, the Congress [the main party in India’s ruling coalition] promised to provide free electricity. And then when they won the elections, they said that they couldn’t provide free electricity because it had been a printing mistake [in the manifesto]. How can it be a printing mistake? Hence, people have grown tired of listening to the many promises that the political parties have been making for so long now. And I myself, being first a citizen and second a leader of a political party, have also become tired of listening to unfulfilled promises. Hence, I formed this party to start something new.
Anil Shirode: The literal translation of MNS is Maharashtra New Creation Army. By army, I do not mean that we are some kind of militant outfit. In Maharashtra’s context, it means [we are] a people’s movement for justice.
FT: What are you doing to differentiate yourself from other established political parties, such as the Congress Party and their pledge to provide free electricity. What are your policies?
Raj Thackeray: I do not think anything should be given for free. Everything has a price attached to it. And also people do not want it for free. People just want these things to be reliable. If electricity is provided on a regular basis without load shedding, they will be willing to pay for it. In the last 10 years, we [Maharashtra State] have not been able to deliver one megawatt of [new capacity in] electricity. And they are promising to deliver it for free. I don’t think anything needs to be given for free. And I am not talking only of Maharashtra but of the whole world.
FT: The national elections are coming up. Will they be a test of sentiment for the MNS in the state elections scheduled later this year?
Raj Thackeray: Yes. The [national] elections will be a test. And hence, we do not want to fight all of the 48 seats [of Maharashtra in the national parliament]. One of the problems we face is [raising enough campaign] money. Thanks to the way the other political parties have corrupted the system, we cannot match them [for funding power] since our party is new. Therefore, we have decided to concentrate on contesting 10-15 seats. We are short on time also and this further means we cannot campaign in all seats.
The second thing is that although there are a lot of candidates in our party, most of them are new faces. They will take time to establish themselves. Hence, I am required to visit all our campaign seats. I do not have body doubles like Saddam Hussein had (laughs). So I, personally, do not have enough time to campaign in all of the 48 seats.
We will concentrate on contesting 10-15 seats because these Lok Sabha [lower house of the national parliament] elections are very important.
FT: Which seats will the MNS contest?
Raj Thackeray: All six seats from Mumbai, Thane, Kalyan, Pune, Nashik, and we are discussing which other seats we should nominate candidates for.
FT: I want to return to the theme of Regional Parties. What does that mean in your context? Your Maharashtra-based party campaigns on representing the cause of local Marathi people. How does it play out in your policies?
Raj Thackeray: The Lok Sabha elections highlight relations between the centre [Delhi] and the state [Maharashta]. Now, people accuse me of raking up the Marathi issue [the regional language of the Maharashtrian people]. I think every state or country has its own language and a certain pride of its own. So, when I ask that Marathi be spoken in this state [Maharashta], it is akin to asking that Italian be the spoken language of Italy. It is the same in the case of the French and English languages. In our country, there are numerous languages spoken. They have developed over many years into their present status.
So the locals here should be fed first and then the outsiders. And I think every state and every country has a similar policy.
FT: Do you believe there has been too much immigration into Mumbai?
Raj Thackeray: Every city or state has a limited capacity with regards to its ability to provide adequate facilities. The taxpayer is entitled to some essential things. Families should be able to provide their children with playgrounds and find places for them in schools. There should be enough hospitals. Water should be provided to all. Surplus electricity should be available. The taxpayer should be comfortable. Today there is such an influx [of people] that 40,000 live in slums next to the pipeline that provides water to the city of Mumbai.
Then there is the issue of terrorism. We do not know who is a terrorist and who is a migrant worker.
In addition, although I do not have anything against people coming from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, the political leaders from those states follow their people to Mumbai and build constituencies here. .. When Indians go abroad to work, they do not build political constituencies over there. Today, Tamils and people from other states come and reside [in Mumbai] but their leaders don’t come here. It is only the political leaders from [UP and Bihar] who are coming here. You see the political slogans of leaders like Mayawati [chief minister of UP and leader of the BSP party] written on walls here. When I talk about Marathi, you accuse me of threatening Indian unity. But Maywati writes: ‘BSP is fighting for North Indians.’ What does that mean?
So on one hand this influx [of people to Mumbai] is creating problems for the taxpayer, and then they go and create [their own] constituencies. These are the basic issues I am highlighting. I have many non-Maharastrian friends. Mumbai has had non-Maharastrian people staying here for many decades. When have I created a ruckus about them?
FT: You’ve stated that the city lacks the capacity to house an influx of non-Maharastrian people. Should these people be stopped from coming.
Raj Thackeray: You have to stop these people from coming in because we have reached the maximum capacity of the city of Mumbai. We do not have places [for them] to stay. And then these people coming from outside and encroach upon municipal and government lands and set up slums. In today’s Mumbai, can you take your children out safely? Is there a place? Is there an open garden where parents can safely take their children out in the evenings? And then we have this daily influx of families. How will we discover who is a terrorist and who is a normal person? Worldwide, wherever you go there are checks. But here in Mumbai, they are non-existent. Here, two to three taxis work under the one taxi permit with the same number plate on their cars. What kind of a system is this? It defies sense. What kind of a migration is this?
Why doesn’t someone ask the politicians of the states of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar why they do not develop their states? They are gobbling up the world’s money, running the central government and sending their people to other states. So whatever has happened has happened. Enough is enough. We need to put an end to this migration.
FT: But how do you stop this migration? India is a free country, there are no controls on the borders …
Raj Thackeray: It is a simple thing. There are laws for it. If only they are implemented, then these migrants cannot come. The migrants come thinking there is space here for them. They can come and live anywhere ... encroach on any pavement and live on any land. But if the government stops them, then where will the migrants stay? If they don’t have a place to stay, why would they come? So if this message can be sent to those planning to come into our cities, they will stop coming. And all these laws are there but because of a lack of political will, these things continue unchecked.
Anil Shirode: There is a 1973 act that states that migrants have to take permission from the state to which they are migrating. They need to have separate ID cards. Also, if any industry is employing more than five migrants, then it needs to take permission from the precinct authorities.
FT: One of the problems with migrants is that political parties, such as your previous party, the Shiv Sena, have used these people as vote banks.
Raj Thackeray: That is what I am coming to. We have schemes such as the Slum Rehabilitation Scheme through which we can build housing for the slumdwellers. But how can your house all the new people coming everyday?
Today, Maharashtra’s financial health is good. We can house all the migrants and people who are residing in the state. Maharashtra is a progressive state … people are coming for a better life. But the continuing fresh influx of people has to stop. Today, there are 350-400 families coming into Mumbai alone every day. How can we provide the necessary infrastructure for them? And moreover, job security is the most important priority when migration happens in other countries. Here, in our state, a person comes first and then scouts for a job. This way no state or country can run.
FT: So you do not have problems with migrants who are already based here. It is only that you do not welcome any new migration?
Raj Thackeray: Absolutely.
FT: Once you said that one of every three employees in Silicon Valley is a Marathi. So people from this state have been welcomed in other states/countries. So don’t you think people from other places should be welcomed from outside?
Raj Thackeray: If there are jobs, then no problem. Why did the US accept all the Maharasthrians? The answer is because the country had jobs. They never overlooked the interests of the US citizens. But in our state, locals are not getting jobs and outsiders are working. First we need to feed those in our own house. If there are surplus jobs, I will call the outsiders, if required. There are 4m unemployed registered with the Employment Exchange Board. No one is getting a call from any employer. And to make matters worse, we have migrants coming who compete for jobs against the locals. So if this tension flares up, then who will be answerable?
FT: We would cross-check the figure of 4m registered with Employment Exchange…
Raj Thackeray: See, there is an act called as Minimum Wages Act. No industry is abiding by it. Now these people from outside can work for as little as Rs2,000-2,500 instead of Rs4,000. So laws are being flouted by industry and the government and this is giving rise to the current wave of tensions. Today, industry favours contract workers over regular or permanent workers. And these contract workers are non-locals. It is not that the locals are not ready to work for below-average wages. If industry asks them to work for lower wages they [the locals] are ready to do so. But here again, they [the locals] do not know where the jobs are being created. There are no advertisements.
FT: Will you ask people to vote on this issue and if you come into power, will you enforce these laws?
Raj Thackeray: Absolutely. In Himachal Pradesh, an industry can be set-up only when it gives in writing that 80 per cent of jobs will be given to locals. Himachal Pradesh is a part of this country right?
FT: Why cannot the locals work for low wages?
Raj Thackeray: They are ready to work but they don’t know where the jobs are. Industries which set up shop, they do not want unions. If they take locals, there would be strong unions. Hence they fear having locals. …
FT: What about the incidents of violence against migrants attributed to your party ...
Raj Thackeray: Basically, what happened was that… [You people not feeling hot? Can we turn on the air-conditioner?]
When I spoke about this thing, I mentioned about Uttar Pradesh day and Chhath puja [a religious festival]. Now there is nothing like Uttar Pradesh day. When India became independent, states were carved out on linguistic lines. Maharashtra for Marathis, Bengal for Bengalis.
The leaders from these states [UP and Bihar] are trying to mobilise people in the city by celebrating such festivals. I have never opposed Chhath puja. But the political tamasha [drama] being played in the backdrop of it by these leaders is something I oppose. A leader from [the UP-based] Samajwadi party, Abu Azmi, said that if someone opposed the Chhath puja, he would bring 20,000-armed people from Azamgarh [Mr Azmi’s village in Uttar-Pradesh] into Mumbai. At the same time, there was a rally of the Samajwadi party in the city where some inflammatory comments were made and tensions built up. There was just this single incident. Other than that there has been nothing. But the English language and Hindi media - owned by the media barons from the states of Uttar-Pradesh, Bihar, and Delhi – claimed that people from UP and Bihar were being attacked. You go and ask people on the streets whether such a thing they were projecting on their channels happened?
But let’s also understand something. If they [the politicians from the northern states] say something inflammatory in their rallies, they will face repercussions in equal measure.
FT: At that time, there was also coverage of violence against migrants in Nashik [a smaller city in Maharashstra]. Was that also done by your party?
Raj Thackeray: See, at a lot of places, locals were involved and it was not entirely our party members. The migrants detest the locals. This is happening here in Mumbai, Pune, Nashik ... many places. The migrants do not respect the locals. The locals then become upset and this spreads. Also, when I was arrested, there was some violence [he was arrested for allegedly making inflammatory comments].
FT: Do you condone the violence?
Raj Thackeray: I do not regret anything. I do not want any violence. But they also should not be aggressive towards us because this could lead to violence. On this same problem, in Assam [another Indian state] people’s throats are slit, they are gunned down. In Manipur too a similar thing is happening. We have problems related to this issue in Punjab, Delhi and Haryana. There no one speaks about this. We do not have violence of the same magnitude here. The leaders of UP and Bihar are responsible for [increasing this type of violence].
FT: Now the issue with Amitabh Bachchan [the Bollywood actor who hails from UP]. There was this controversy in the media where you said he should be more patriotic about Mumbai ...
Raj Thackeray: I had said something then which I would like to say again now. Be it Amitabh Bachchan, Lata Mangeshkar, Sachin Tendulkar. These people are respected globally. Amitabh Bachchan contested his first election as a representative of UP and not Maharashtra … No problem … Then he becomes a brand ambassador for UP .... I have a speech of his which says that: ‘I have lived in Delhi and Kolkata [West Bengal] but my identity is rooted more in UP than anywhere else.’
If these Indian global figures can have so much love for their states, can’t such a small leader like Raj Thackeray also love his state? When I talk about espousing the cause of my state, you accuse me of threatening national unity. But big stars like Amitabh Bachchan can do it.
FT: So are you implying that any “global” Indian who happens to live in Mumbai should not express his love for the state of his birth? Should he refer to himself as an Indian first ...
Raj Thackeray: The thing is that every person loves his state or region. If Raj Thackeray expresses love for his state, I am accused threatening national unity. But when such a big star expresses his love for just one state, don’t his fans from other states feel hurt? Every person loves his or her state. … Why do you get miffed when I express love for my state?
FT: How do you organise your party? I understand you admire some aspects of Adolf Hitler.
Raj Thackeray: [Laughs]. … Every individual has good things and bad things about him. If one admires the good aspects of a person, then what is the issue? Now whether it is Adolf Hitler or Mahatma Gandhi, I respect and appreciate both in equal measure. I respect him [Adolf Hitler] for his love for his country and not for the extermination of Jews. I respect him for his development work ... The world’s first autobahn was done under his tenure.
Will you remember Bill Clinton for reviving the US economy or for the Monica Lewinsky episode?
Our party also has a system. Just like in a pyramid, after me, there is a set of 15 people, and then 50 and then 500.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009
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